I have been reading "The Songs of Jesus," which is Tim Keller's take on all of the Psalms, with a prayer and an explanation. It is designed to be read over the course of the year. I didn't start in January so I read a few today. For May 3, it is Psalm 58:1-5
Keller goes on to tell us that corruption is not new, and that they often rule of out self-interest and to increase their power. This is the prayer he shared, which I share here because it touches on so many of the mini-conversations:
"Lord, put into authority honest, wise and generous leaders. And when I see those who are not so, do not let me fall into the error of thinking that I would be impervious to the temptations of power. Establish justice in our land. Amen"
And on to May 4 and Psalm 58:6-11. This is his prayer for that group of verses, which prayer really puts into words what I have been feeling (and what has been previously discussed in other posts on this blog):
"Lord, make me an agent of reconciliation, forgiving from the heart those who do wrong yet at the same time insisting on truth and responsibility. That is a life shaped by the cross, honoring both mercy and justice at the same time. Amen."
Wonderful Jennifer! So true. Forgiveness is so hard especially to those who are not such great people. Also trying to cut people slack by being empathetic. It's a hard thing for me to do. What would I be like if I were Pope or another person with earthly power? Who knows, probably a monster, which is why God keeps me far far away from any power whatsoever.
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
I've always felt that St. Thomas is how I would have acted in the presence of Jesus. Doubting and pessimistic Thomas, that's me (plus his name means "twin" and I'm a twin). But Thomas brings out the most famous quote from Jesus - so there's that.
"But Thomas brings out the most famous quote from Jesus - so there's that."
Just looking for ways to firm-up uncertainties, minimise doubt, adhere to the Lord's Prayer, the simple stuff that binds faith, building up the armour for what is to come, exemplified by, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
I grew up catholic, so I understand exactly what you are going through. Little known fact, the Peter that founded the catholic church is NOT the Peter Jesus spoke to in the verse below. The verse below is often misinterpreted bc those with the gift of discernment are no longer allowed to buy/sell (exchange ideas, interpretations, share/trade information). The true church of christ cannot be defined in terms of a denomination catholic, protestant, muslim, methodist, et all, they all are not "the rock" Jesus speaks of in the scripture below.
† And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. † (Matt. 16:18)
There is only one church, one body, one rock, one head, and one shepherd. Jesus Christ.
Scripture says that God gave Jesus “as head over all things to the church, which is his body” (Ephesians 1:22-23). Jesus is the rock. This verse is important because Jesus establishes his church and the explains the hierarchy of dominion so his disciples can assert authority in his name. Jesus is the rock The church of Christ is LIVING, its an actual LIVING BODY OF PEOPLE. The original 12 disciples never separated from each other, all denominations are corrupt. The pope isnt the head of the church, Jesus Christ is.
We live in the harvest of the wheat and tares. God starts judgement with his own house. If the pope is falling its because hes a tare. Do not worry yourself with the judgement of others or the church, thats Gods job.
Hes the same today, as he was yesterday, and will be tomorrow. Focus on just reading the gospel and getting to know the character of Jesus. His words straight from the source are the only teacher, leader, shepherd, king, and Lord you will ever need.
Hi Lily. Interesting. I totally agree with you in regards to Jesus being the head of the Church. One question as you grew up Catholic - what do you think of the Eucharist? Is the whole Christ truly present -- body, blood, soul, and divinity -- under the appearances of bread and wine at the Mass? I believe it is so and why I mainly stay in the Catholic Church. Or was Jesus' last supper just a supper? Someday I will do a post on this topic since it always interested me.
I am still learning about the Eucharist, I do not like the importance the church places on the ritualistic aspect of the sacraments. Doing something with no real understanding of its meaning is not how God intended the last supper to be interpreted.
To be honest, I think the interpretation is taken too literally and focuses more on the miracle of turning wine/bread to blood/flesh instead of what Jesus was really saying at the last supper.
I am having a hard time putting my thoughts on this into words, sorry if Im not making any sense.
The Holy Spirit is what Jesus talks to his disciples about during the last supper. The Holy Spirit is how Gods presence manifests and is truly present. The third temple is the body of christ, so if there is at least one true believer at mass then technically "yes" the whole of Christ is present at mass. The eucharist is symbolic of this truth, the scripture below is what I think its supposed to represent. Get it? Because we eat/drink the eucharist its technically in us lol. Idk, like I said Im still figuring it out. But I think the answer is yes I believe the eucharist and the whole Christ is truly present -- body, blood, soul, and divinity -- under the appearances of bread and wine at the Mass.
"In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you"
Thanks lily! I do appreciate your thoughts. Most times what Jesus talks about goes right over my head, and when He talked about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, most of His disciples left Him (insane man!). But that is when Peter said "to whom shall go? You have the words of eternal life." I keep coming back to that, which gives me comfort.
LOL! So true! I forgot to put one word in my last prayer for Francis: " I pray that Francis will find eternal rest SOON in whatever destiny is judged to be his after his death."
You have a valid point about Mt. 16:18, traditional Protestant interpretations aside. Grammatically (in both the English and the Greek) Peter appears to be the rock to which Jesus refers. I was taught otherwise growing up, but reading the "rock" as Jesus never quite made sense to me, not in that verse.
Without lengthy explanations or quotes from commentaries, "the gates of hell" statement appears to say that the Church won't die. The same does not apply to its members, of course.
As for apostolic succession, what is the basis for that, other than that it has been assumed? I'm not making a statement about it; I'm asking. I've not studied the matter.
I've often wondered about it as well. It does make sense though if you think about it. The lineage of Church leaders going directly back to Peter who actually lived with Jesus and listened to Him directly is supposed to keep Jesus' true words alive. This would work only if Popes followed the words of Jesus and did not go off on their own tangents. The current Pope Francis is the latter. But the next Pope may be the former. Who knows? Popes are only men - good, bad or indifferent. But Jesus' teachings are eternal.
When I paused to think about apostolic succession, after reading your post, I drew a blank. I don't recall ever making a study of it. But when I read your reply, a light came on. My present church has been running a summer-fall sermon series on the book of Acts, and because I am serving as a substitute leader of a sermon-oriented small group that meets there, I have been studying along, in depth. That book has things to say about Peter.
One vital point about him that is often highlighted, and of which I was already very aware, is the contrast between Peter the disciple, culminating in his threefold denial of Jesus before the crucifixion, and the apostle Peter, preaching at the following Feast of Weeks (Pentecost). He became a different person. How did this come about?
Answers can be found in John and in Acts. The direct answer is in John 15:26-27:
“But when the Helper [παράκλητος/paraklētos] comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning."
Peter's transformation occurred when this prophecy of Jesus was fulfilled. Peter was with Jesus from the beginning, yes, as were others, but that was not what transformed him or the others.
Acts begins with Jesus meeting/eating (the Greek work can indicate either or both) with the apostles (as they were now called) and instructing them. The language suggests that the group consisted of just the Eleven. At the ascension, Jesus told them (Acts 1:8)
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Their ability as witnesses going forward depended not only upon having been witnesses from the beginning, but also upon receiving power through the Holy Spirit. Judas Iscariot was with Jesus from the beginning, but no longer in the picture.
In Acts 1:15, we see Peter emerge as "the rock" -- the leader -- in the days before Pentecost, when about 120 followers of Jesus were gathering:
"And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (a crowd of people, about a hundred and twenty, had gathered together), and said…"
Then comes the prophesied Holy Spirit:
Acts 2:1 "When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in the same place. 2 And suddenly from heaven there came a sound like a violent blast of wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues spreading out like fire, and one came to rest on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance."
And then Peter stands up and begins to preach, and his transformation appears complete:
Acts 2:14-21: But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these men are not, as you suppose, drunk, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: ‘And it will be in the last days,’ declares God, ‘that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. Even on my male servants and on my female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they will prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and smoky vapor. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And it shall be that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved’..."
From there the focus expands to include the other apostles, with Peter the leader, all of whom had received the Holy Spirit along with others.
Acts 2:37: Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and they said to Peter and the other apostles, “My brothers, what shall we do?”
By verse 44 the focus has further expanded: "And all who believed were together, and had all things in common…".
And so the Church began to be built, with Peter initially leading and orchestrating, but along with the other apostles, expanding into an ever-larger gathering which included those that were with Jesus from the beginning and others that were not (most famously, Paul). The Holy Spirit, indwelling in those who believed, was what made all of this possible.
Thanks CM for that information. Great information about Peter. From denying Jesus three times to saying he loved Jesus three times (feed my sheep), Peter was chosen by Jesus to lead His Church. Such a flawed man, like all of us. But it is the Holy Spirit that is not flawed. I still wonder why when the apostles received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost they changed completely, but when we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism, nothing seems to really change. Why have we lost the ability to tap into the Holy Spirit?
The outward manifestations of the indwelling Holy Spirit are not visible to the extent that they were in the early church. I can't think of a scriptural explanation for that, but they did serve as a catalyst for church growth in that time. For example:
1Cor. 14:24-25 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
I haven't seen that happen, but I have had the experience of sharing the gospel with someone, from scripture, and seeing that person, eventually, turn (repent) and become a follower of Jesus. So I see the Holy Spirit still working, but with an emphasis now on relational evangelism (also seen in Paul's work) and sharing of and teaching from the written Word (NT now as well as OT). I certainly did not cause that person to change.
Following is a long quote, but in it Jesus says a great deal about the Holy Spirit. These things remain true today.
John 16:5 “But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; 11 and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."
John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them at the present time. 13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; this is why I said that He takes from Mine and will disclose it to you. "
These comments reveal how much insidious damage Modernism & Vatican II have wreaked on society. Perhaps Francis is the capstone or perhaps there is an even worse Pope waiting in the wings. I pray for strength and guidance as I work out my salvation with fear and trembling. May God have mercy on us all.
Vatican II (Novus Ordo) - New Order was the blueprint for the New World Order the world is going through now. The similarity in titles is not coincidence. The Church had to be destroyed before the rest of society could be destroyed. Satan knows this. People wonder why things are happening - covid, climate change, alphabet people, electric boogaloo, pedophilia, etc. Look to the history of the Catholic Church since the 1960's and you will find your answer.
Thanks ts, I'm going to look into the Alta Vendita.
The similarity in titles notwithstanding, The New World Order had its genesis long before Vat II. The Council brought it out into the open, for those who had eyes to see. Pope Pius X warned us.
Paolo Freire ( education) Klaus Schwab ( finance) Francis Bergoglio ( Religion) are all influenced by Helder Camara. The Great Reset is but an iteration of Marxian Revolution as a means to overthrow the current system whereby man, through transhumanism, becomes god.
I see nothing wrong with the idea of finding a new and different church where you can have Christian fellowship and feel the Holy Spirit's guidance under the leadership of a righteous society. Go where you can grow. May God bless you with the desires of your heart.
Hi Charlotte, you may be right. When I first came back from my agnosticism I looked into non-Catholic Churches and would listen to Protestant radio programs. They gave me a reason to start reading the Gospels again. But I was still missing something as many Protestant churches seemed so man-based. I missed the "smells and bells" mysteries of the Catholic Church. But then there is the Pope - a man. Surprisingly even as Pope Francis tries to destroy the Church (and he is believe me), the local parishes defying him are growing while those that follow him are losing members. Maybe Francis was needed to kickstart the Church into behaving again!
While I do not know how my Priest feels about the Pope (we pray for the Pope in each Mass), I do know that my priest openly supports freedom, and our Parish is growing. Though, I concede, I live in a growing area. But we are bursting out of the seams with three services.
Nap; stay where you are. Trust me, I struggle with this man; perhaps far more than you do but if I jump the ship then I'll be out there , so to speak, with my pants down around my ankles. There IS a higher authority than the Pope and while we vow our obedience that only goes so far as not to run us off the rails.
I hear you. I keep coming back to what Peter said when Jesus asked the apostles if they were going to leave Him too - "but where would we go? You have the words of eternal life." Yes, where is there to go? I've been there off on my own - it sucks. The more I think about it Pope Francis is strengthening the Church as he tries to destroy it. The TLM movement is stronger than ever and will grow even more as long as Francis is alive and kicking. Francis knows not what he does.
Good thing he doesn't know. If he and his cronies try and squash the TLM at the Fall Synod; people need to resist. My take on the two forms of Mass is this. The True Presence is made manifest in both but the difference is like that of Vitamin D milk versus skim. Just that; something (and that is to say what truly makes a Mass Catholic))has been willingly and purposely skimmed off of the top.
To think that leaders are infallible or cannot be corrupted is to be naïve. A system of checks and balances is necessary, but even that system can be corrupted if enough people installed in the system are. If people fall largely apathetic and incorrigible to a corrupt system, the system will remain.
I feel prayers for less apathy and more awareness/courage is likely more effective than for a corrupted person, but those are just my thoughts. Likely both types of prayers are needed. I may have left the formal physical institution of a church, but I pray much more now than when I ever attended church.
"To think that leaders are infallible or cannot be corrupted is to be naïve."
So true. Religious leaders are like all other leaders - power corrupts. That is why Jesus was so different and truly was God. Jesus rejected all earthly power and did the complete opposite of what most leaders do. The Catholic Church sprung directly from Jesus' followers, but is still a system that can be corrupted since it is lead by humans. I see the checks and balances in Catholicism as God and Jesus himself, especially since Jesus said the Church will always exist until the end of the earth. Nothing better than having a divine checks and balancer!
And yes you are right - prayers for discernment for certain people are much more effective as they allow for God's gift of free will to continue in the person you are praying for.
I am Catholic by marriage and have attended a Catholic church for almost 20 years - so I claim being Catholic even though I can't take communion (though my current priest has me considering formally converting). My mixed heritage is a blessing because I don't believe I have to follow the Pope in all he says and does! One thing from my past that I have thought a lot about over the past few years is something horribly sad that taught me a lesson about the fallibility, the humanness of our church leaders. My childhood pastor committed adultery and abandoned his wife and family; the woman he committed adultery with also left her family. It caused so much hurt and pain. Back then, I thought, how wrong. Now, I thank God for teaching me this lesson about humanness and sin and that even our religious leaders get it horribly wrong sometime, with their words and/or actions. Acts 5:29 I follow God and not man. The Pope is most definitely a man!
Would I recommend people converting to the Catholic faith? Some days I say yes and other days no. My father was not Catholic but attended Church with us every Sunday. He converted to the faith on his deathbed. My ex-spouse was also not Catholic but would never even consider attending Church with me. Maybe that is one of the reasons my marriage died while my parents marriage lasted until death do they part. But as you say all religions and churches are led by mere mortals and attended by mere mortals. Should we toss God's religion because we mere mortals exercise our God-given free will to do evil?
Another privilege from not being raised Catholic - I am not caught up in the formality requiring conversion to call myself Catholic. I am a Christian who attends a Catholic church and raises my children Catholic - so for all intents and purposes Catholic, including embracing much, but not all, of the religious teaching of the Catholic church. If I formally convert, it will be to take communion. It will not change the fact that I am a Christian nor would I expect it to change any fundamental belief I have. To the point you made, I believe that all "branches" of the Christian church are Christian, and it is highly unlikely that any one branch (including the Catholic church) has it "right" in the sense that God intended. Each type of church interprets the Biblical teaching and applies it as they believe is correct. My personal beliefs are very much individualized, drawing upon my youth, which was a mix of Baptist (the church my grandparents attended and where I chose to be baptized to honor my Grandmother's wishes) and Presbyterian (the church where I was confirmed and where I was a member with my parents), drawing upon my adulthood, which included making the conscious choice to honor my husband, informally adopt the Catholic faith, marry in the Catholic church and raise our children Catholic, and drawing upon my own reading of the Scripture. I absolutely believe our religious leaders are fallible (the example I provided along with the horrible examples of child abuse in so many religious institutions), but I have chosen to not reject God and the Bible because some of the people who claim his blessing have done wrong. It is interesting that you talk about marriage and attending church together - for me, a huge part of my decision (which, my husband will tell you, was not a huge discussion - I ceded the issue without making it a discussion) was that I believed it was important that my family worship together - and I knew that my husband would only attend the Catholic church out of loyalty to his deceased mother. It was incredibly important to me that we have marital harmony on that point and that we were consistent in raising our kids as Christian, attending church together. But, back to the point, I fundamentally believe that God gave me free will and that my life is better when I lean in to His plans for me. I fundamentally believe that the blessings I have are a gift from God. And I fundamentally believe that I am to treat others with kindness and respect, without judgment, and that all I have is because of God's grace. And I fundamentally believe that, when we listen, we can hear direction from God....and I have been incredibly blessed with clear direction the past few years, because I chose to intently listen and seek His guidance.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28
God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. Acts 10:28
But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. James 1:6
(Sorry, that got rambly at the end....I will not reject God because of the bad acts of others...)
"My mixed heritage is a blessing because I don't believe I have to follow the Pope in all he says and does! "
Correct in so far as it does not relate to faith and morals and that is to say, dogma. Climate change, universal basic income, etc. no can do. No need to agree.
I think you mean when it is not of faith and morals i.e. dogma. Global warming vaccines. etc. etc. is not dogma and so we need not listen to him on these and other matters. When he would speak 'from the chair' is a different matter.
Napoleon, I hope you don't mind me posting this here. I may begin posting regularly: https://ramblingsoffaith.substack.com/p/the-prayer-i-began-praying-before?sd=pf
I have been reading "The Songs of Jesus," which is Tim Keller's take on all of the Psalms, with a prayer and an explanation. It is designed to be read over the course of the year. I didn't start in January so I read a few today. For May 3, it is Psalm 58:1-5
Keller goes on to tell us that corruption is not new, and that they often rule of out self-interest and to increase their power. This is the prayer he shared, which I share here because it touches on so many of the mini-conversations:
"Lord, put into authority honest, wise and generous leaders. And when I see those who are not so, do not let me fall into the error of thinking that I would be impervious to the temptations of power. Establish justice in our land. Amen"
And on to May 4 and Psalm 58:6-11. This is his prayer for that group of verses, which prayer really puts into words what I have been feeling (and what has been previously discussed in other posts on this blog):
"Lord, make me an agent of reconciliation, forgiving from the heart those who do wrong yet at the same time insisting on truth and responsibility. That is a life shaped by the cross, honoring both mercy and justice at the same time. Amen."
Wonderful Jennifer! So true. Forgiveness is so hard especially to those who are not such great people. Also trying to cut people slack by being empathetic. It's a hard thing for me to do. What would I be like if I were Pope or another person with earthly power? Who knows, probably a monster, which is why God keeps me far far away from any power whatsoever.
John 14:2-6 ~ New King James Version
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
I've always felt that St. Thomas is how I would have acted in the presence of Jesus. Doubting and pessimistic Thomas, that's me (plus his name means "twin" and I'm a twin). But Thomas brings out the most famous quote from Jesus - so there's that.
"But Thomas brings out the most famous quote from Jesus - so there's that."
Just looking for ways to firm-up uncertainties, minimise doubt, adhere to the Lord's Prayer, the simple stuff that binds faith, building up the armour for what is to come, exemplified by, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Thank you Napoleon.
I grew up catholic, so I understand exactly what you are going through. Little known fact, the Peter that founded the catholic church is NOT the Peter Jesus spoke to in the verse below. The verse below is often misinterpreted bc those with the gift of discernment are no longer allowed to buy/sell (exchange ideas, interpretations, share/trade information). The true church of christ cannot be defined in terms of a denomination catholic, protestant, muslim, methodist, et all, they all are not "the rock" Jesus speaks of in the scripture below.
† And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. † (Matt. 16:18)
There is only one church, one body, one rock, one head, and one shepherd. Jesus Christ.
Scripture says that God gave Jesus “as head over all things to the church, which is his body” (Ephesians 1:22-23). Jesus is the rock. This verse is important because Jesus establishes his church and the explains the hierarchy of dominion so his disciples can assert authority in his name. Jesus is the rock The church of Christ is LIVING, its an actual LIVING BODY OF PEOPLE. The original 12 disciples never separated from each other, all denominations are corrupt. The pope isnt the head of the church, Jesus Christ is.
We live in the harvest of the wheat and tares. God starts judgement with his own house. If the pope is falling its because hes a tare. Do not worry yourself with the judgement of others or the church, thats Gods job.
Hes the same today, as he was yesterday, and will be tomorrow. Focus on just reading the gospel and getting to know the character of Jesus. His words straight from the source are the only teacher, leader, shepherd, king, and Lord you will ever need.
Hope this helps :)
Hi Lily. Interesting. I totally agree with you in regards to Jesus being the head of the Church. One question as you grew up Catholic - what do you think of the Eucharist? Is the whole Christ truly present -- body, blood, soul, and divinity -- under the appearances of bread and wine at the Mass? I believe it is so and why I mainly stay in the Catholic Church. Or was Jesus' last supper just a supper? Someday I will do a post on this topic since it always interested me.
I am still learning about the Eucharist, I do not like the importance the church places on the ritualistic aspect of the sacraments. Doing something with no real understanding of its meaning is not how God intended the last supper to be interpreted.
To be honest, I think the interpretation is taken too literally and focuses more on the miracle of turning wine/bread to blood/flesh instead of what Jesus was really saying at the last supper.
I am having a hard time putting my thoughts on this into words, sorry if Im not making any sense.
The Holy Spirit is what Jesus talks to his disciples about during the last supper. The Holy Spirit is how Gods presence manifests and is truly present. The third temple is the body of christ, so if there is at least one true believer at mass then technically "yes" the whole of Christ is present at mass. The eucharist is symbolic of this truth, the scripture below is what I think its supposed to represent. Get it? Because we eat/drink the eucharist its technically in us lol. Idk, like I said Im still figuring it out. But I think the answer is yes I believe the eucharist and the whole Christ is truly present -- body, blood, soul, and divinity -- under the appearances of bread and wine at the Mass.
"In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you"
Thanks lily! I do appreciate your thoughts. Most times what Jesus talks about goes right over my head, and when He talked about eating His flesh and drinking His blood, most of His disciples left Him (insane man!). But that is when Peter said "to whom shall go? You have the words of eternal life." I keep coming back to that, which gives me comfort.
"People say pray for the Pope. Okey Dokey. 'Lord, I pray Pope Francis will stop...'" 🌥🙏😎
LOL! So true! I forgot to put one word in my last prayer for Francis: " I pray that Francis will find eternal rest SOON in whatever destiny is judged to be his after his death."
Take your cross and follow me!
Amen! No matter the difficulty.
There is no difficulty ... apart from the stubborn unfaithful HUMAN MIND! ;-)
Which ONLY HE CAN & WILL take care of ... IF asked properly!
You have a valid point about Mt. 16:18, traditional Protestant interpretations aside. Grammatically (in both the English and the Greek) Peter appears to be the rock to which Jesus refers. I was taught otherwise growing up, but reading the "rock" as Jesus never quite made sense to me, not in that verse.
Without lengthy explanations or quotes from commentaries, "the gates of hell" statement appears to say that the Church won't die. The same does not apply to its members, of course.
As for apostolic succession, what is the basis for that, other than that it has been assumed? I'm not making a statement about it; I'm asking. I've not studied the matter.
Hi CM. Here is information about the apostolic succession: https://www.catholic.com/tract/apostolic-succession
I've often wondered about it as well. It does make sense though if you think about it. The lineage of Church leaders going directly back to Peter who actually lived with Jesus and listened to Him directly is supposed to keep Jesus' true words alive. This would work only if Popes followed the words of Jesus and did not go off on their own tangents. The current Pope Francis is the latter. But the next Pope may be the former. Who knows? Popes are only men - good, bad or indifferent. But Jesus' teachings are eternal.
When I paused to think about apostolic succession, after reading your post, I drew a blank. I don't recall ever making a study of it. But when I read your reply, a light came on. My present church has been running a summer-fall sermon series on the book of Acts, and because I am serving as a substitute leader of a sermon-oriented small group that meets there, I have been studying along, in depth. That book has things to say about Peter.
One vital point about him that is often highlighted, and of which I was already very aware, is the contrast between Peter the disciple, culminating in his threefold denial of Jesus before the crucifixion, and the apostle Peter, preaching at the following Feast of Weeks (Pentecost). He became a different person. How did this come about?
Answers can be found in John and in Acts. The direct answer is in John 15:26-27:
“But when the Helper [παράκλητος/paraklētos] comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning."
Peter's transformation occurred when this prophecy of Jesus was fulfilled. Peter was with Jesus from the beginning, yes, as were others, but that was not what transformed him or the others.
Acts begins with Jesus meeting/eating (the Greek work can indicate either or both) with the apostles (as they were now called) and instructing them. The language suggests that the group consisted of just the Eleven. At the ascension, Jesus told them (Acts 1:8)
"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
Their ability as witnesses going forward depended not only upon having been witnesses from the beginning, but also upon receiving power through the Holy Spirit. Judas Iscariot was with Jesus from the beginning, but no longer in the picture.
In Acts 1:15, we see Peter emerge as "the rock" -- the leader -- in the days before Pentecost, when about 120 followers of Jesus were gathering:
"And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (a crowd of people, about a hundred and twenty, had gathered together), and said…"
Then comes the prophesied Holy Spirit:
Acts 2:1 "When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in the same place. 2 And suddenly from heaven there came a sound like a violent blast of wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues spreading out like fire, and one came to rest on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance."
And then Peter stands up and begins to preach, and his transformation appears complete:
Acts 2:14-21: But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these men are not, as you suppose, drunk, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: ‘And it will be in the last days,’ declares God, ‘that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters will prophesy, and your young men will see visions, and your old men will dream dreams. Even on my male servants and on my female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they will prophesy. And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and smoky vapor. The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21 And it shall be that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved’..."
From there the focus expands to include the other apostles, with Peter the leader, all of whom had received the Holy Spirit along with others.
Acts 2:37: Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and they said to Peter and the other apostles, “My brothers, what shall we do?”
By verse 44 the focus has further expanded: "And all who believed were together, and had all things in common…".
And so the Church began to be built, with Peter initially leading and orchestrating, but along with the other apostles, expanding into an ever-larger gathering which included those that were with Jesus from the beginning and others that were not (most famously, Paul). The Holy Spirit, indwelling in those who believed, was what made all of this possible.
Thanks CM for that information. Great information about Peter. From denying Jesus three times to saying he loved Jesus three times (feed my sheep), Peter was chosen by Jesus to lead His Church. Such a flawed man, like all of us. But it is the Holy Spirit that is not flawed. I still wonder why when the apostles received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost they changed completely, but when we receive the Holy Spirit at baptism, nothing seems to really change. Why have we lost the ability to tap into the Holy Spirit?
The outward manifestations of the indwelling Holy Spirit are not visible to the extent that they were in the early church. I can't think of a scriptural explanation for that, but they did serve as a catalyst for church growth in that time. For example:
1Cor. 14:24-25 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
I haven't seen that happen, but I have had the experience of sharing the gospel with someone, from scripture, and seeing that person, eventually, turn (repent) and become a follower of Jesus. So I see the Holy Spirit still working, but with an emphasis now on relational evangelism (also seen in Paul's work) and sharing of and teaching from the written Word (NT now as well as OT). I certainly did not cause that person to change.
Following is a long quote, but in it Jesus says a great deal about the Holy Spirit. These things remain true today.
John 16:5 “But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see Me; 11 and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."
John 16:12 “I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them at the present time. 13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take from Mine and will disclose it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine; this is why I said that He takes from Mine and will disclose it to you. "
These comments reveal how much insidious damage Modernism & Vatican II have wreaked on society. Perhaps Francis is the capstone or perhaps there is an even worse Pope waiting in the wings. I pray for strength and guidance as I work out my salvation with fear and trembling. May God have mercy on us all.
Vatican II (Novus Ordo) - New Order was the blueprint for the New World Order the world is going through now. The similarity in titles is not coincidence. The Church had to be destroyed before the rest of society could be destroyed. Satan knows this. People wonder why things are happening - covid, climate change, alphabet people, electric boogaloo, pedophilia, etc. Look to the history of the Catholic Church since the 1960's and you will find your answer.
Thanks ts, I'm going to look into the Alta Vendita.
The similarity in titles notwithstanding, The New World Order had its genesis long before Vat II. The Council brought it out into the open, for those who had eyes to see. Pope Pius X warned us.
Paolo Freire ( education) Klaus Schwab ( finance) Francis Bergoglio ( Religion) are all influenced by Helder Camara. The Great Reset is but an iteration of Marxian Revolution as a means to overthrow the current system whereby man, through transhumanism, becomes god.
In my estimation he is the embodiment of the Alta Vendita.
I see nothing wrong with the idea of finding a new and different church where you can have Christian fellowship and feel the Holy Spirit's guidance under the leadership of a righteous society. Go where you can grow. May God bless you with the desires of your heart.
Hi Charlotte, you may be right. When I first came back from my agnosticism I looked into non-Catholic Churches and would listen to Protestant radio programs. They gave me a reason to start reading the Gospels again. But I was still missing something as many Protestant churches seemed so man-based. I missed the "smells and bells" mysteries of the Catholic Church. But then there is the Pope - a man. Surprisingly even as Pope Francis tries to destroy the Church (and he is believe me), the local parishes defying him are growing while those that follow him are losing members. Maybe Francis was needed to kickstart the Church into behaving again!
Yes, that is a possibility and with the commotion of evilness going on, revival is sure to spring up!
While I do not know how my Priest feels about the Pope (we pray for the Pope in each Mass), I do know that my priest openly supports freedom, and our Parish is growing. Though, I concede, I live in a growing area. But we are bursting out of the seams with three services.
Nap; stay where you are. Trust me, I struggle with this man; perhaps far more than you do but if I jump the ship then I'll be out there , so to speak, with my pants down around my ankles. There IS a higher authority than the Pope and while we vow our obedience that only goes so far as not to run us off the rails.
I hear you. I keep coming back to what Peter said when Jesus asked the apostles if they were going to leave Him too - "but where would we go? You have the words of eternal life." Yes, where is there to go? I've been there off on my own - it sucks. The more I think about it Pope Francis is strengthening the Church as he tries to destroy it. The TLM movement is stronger than ever and will grow even more as long as Francis is alive and kicking. Francis knows not what he does.
Good thing he doesn't know. If he and his cronies try and squash the TLM at the Fall Synod; people need to resist. My take on the two forms of Mass is this. The True Presence is made manifest in both but the difference is like that of Vitamin D milk versus skim. Just that; something (and that is to say what truly makes a Mass Catholic))has been willingly and purposely skimmed off of the top.
To think that leaders are infallible or cannot be corrupted is to be naïve. A system of checks and balances is necessary, but even that system can be corrupted if enough people installed in the system are. If people fall largely apathetic and incorrigible to a corrupt system, the system will remain.
I feel prayers for less apathy and more awareness/courage is likely more effective than for a corrupted person, but those are just my thoughts. Likely both types of prayers are needed. I may have left the formal physical institution of a church, but I pray much more now than when I ever attended church.
"To think that leaders are infallible or cannot be corrupted is to be naïve."
So true. Religious leaders are like all other leaders - power corrupts. That is why Jesus was so different and truly was God. Jesus rejected all earthly power and did the complete opposite of what most leaders do. The Catholic Church sprung directly from Jesus' followers, but is still a system that can be corrupted since it is lead by humans. I see the checks and balances in Catholicism as God and Jesus himself, especially since Jesus said the Church will always exist until the end of the earth. Nothing better than having a divine checks and balancer!
And yes you are right - prayers for discernment for certain people are much more effective as they allow for God's gift of free will to continue in the person you are praying for.
I am Catholic by marriage and have attended a Catholic church for almost 20 years - so I claim being Catholic even though I can't take communion (though my current priest has me considering formally converting). My mixed heritage is a blessing because I don't believe I have to follow the Pope in all he says and does! One thing from my past that I have thought a lot about over the past few years is something horribly sad that taught me a lesson about the fallibility, the humanness of our church leaders. My childhood pastor committed adultery and abandoned his wife and family; the woman he committed adultery with also left her family. It caused so much hurt and pain. Back then, I thought, how wrong. Now, I thank God for teaching me this lesson about humanness and sin and that even our religious leaders get it horribly wrong sometime, with their words and/or actions. Acts 5:29 I follow God and not man. The Pope is most definitely a man!
Would I recommend people converting to the Catholic faith? Some days I say yes and other days no. My father was not Catholic but attended Church with us every Sunday. He converted to the faith on his deathbed. My ex-spouse was also not Catholic but would never even consider attending Church with me. Maybe that is one of the reasons my marriage died while my parents marriage lasted until death do they part. But as you say all religions and churches are led by mere mortals and attended by mere mortals. Should we toss God's religion because we mere mortals exercise our God-given free will to do evil?
Another privilege from not being raised Catholic - I am not caught up in the formality requiring conversion to call myself Catholic. I am a Christian who attends a Catholic church and raises my children Catholic - so for all intents and purposes Catholic, including embracing much, but not all, of the religious teaching of the Catholic church. If I formally convert, it will be to take communion. It will not change the fact that I am a Christian nor would I expect it to change any fundamental belief I have. To the point you made, I believe that all "branches" of the Christian church are Christian, and it is highly unlikely that any one branch (including the Catholic church) has it "right" in the sense that God intended. Each type of church interprets the Biblical teaching and applies it as they believe is correct. My personal beliefs are very much individualized, drawing upon my youth, which was a mix of Baptist (the church my grandparents attended and where I chose to be baptized to honor my Grandmother's wishes) and Presbyterian (the church where I was confirmed and where I was a member with my parents), drawing upon my adulthood, which included making the conscious choice to honor my husband, informally adopt the Catholic faith, marry in the Catholic church and raise our children Catholic, and drawing upon my own reading of the Scripture. I absolutely believe our religious leaders are fallible (the example I provided along with the horrible examples of child abuse in so many religious institutions), but I have chosen to not reject God and the Bible because some of the people who claim his blessing have done wrong. It is interesting that you talk about marriage and attending church together - for me, a huge part of my decision (which, my husband will tell you, was not a huge discussion - I ceded the issue without making it a discussion) was that I believed it was important that my family worship together - and I knew that my husband would only attend the Catholic church out of loyalty to his deceased mother. It was incredibly important to me that we have marital harmony on that point and that we were consistent in raising our kids as Christian, attending church together. But, back to the point, I fundamentally believe that God gave me free will and that my life is better when I lean in to His plans for me. I fundamentally believe that the blessings I have are a gift from God. And I fundamentally believe that I am to treat others with kindness and respect, without judgment, and that all I have is because of God's grace. And I fundamentally believe that, when we listen, we can hear direction from God....and I have been incredibly blessed with clear direction the past few years, because I chose to intently listen and seek His guidance.
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28
God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. Acts 10:28
But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. James 1:6
(Sorry, that got rambly at the end....I will not reject God because of the bad acts of others...)
"My mixed heritage is a blessing because I don't believe I have to follow the Pope in all he says and does! "
Correct in so far as it does not relate to faith and morals and that is to say, dogma. Climate change, universal basic income, etc. no can do. No need to agree.
In addition, Catholics do not need to follow the Pope when his pronouncements of faith and morals is dogma.
I think you mean when it is not of faith and morals i.e. dogma. Global warming vaccines. etc. etc. is not dogma and so we need not listen to him on these and other matters. When he would speak 'from the chair' is a different matter.